Bertram That's not an argument explaining what was seen in L.A.

Percival Bertram If foreign flags are seen as un-American, why is a flag from a failed American rebellion somehow patriotic? Is flying a Mexican flag at a protest worse than flying a flag that stood for killing U.S. soldiers to preserve slavery? Seems like the outrage isn't really about flags. It's about who's protesting, and what they're protesting against.

Reginald Percival Exactly what I thought when they started talking about flags.

Bertram Percival Well you did say that it was American even though failed attempt. Also, these immigrants(likely illegal) are so grateful for the opportunity to live in this country that they slap the proverbial face of people who love this country. I get your point about the Confederate flag but I absolutely disagree with your assertion that they are equivalent.

Percival Bertram Just to clarify. One group waves the flag of a failed rebellion that killed hundreds of thousands of Americans to preserve slavery. That is not considered a slap in the face to people who love this country? Is that not in a slap in the face of liberty? Meanwhile, some immigrants protest federal policy while flying a flag from their country of origin. That gets framed as ungrateful and anti-American? Is the issue what a flag represents, or who is holding it?

Bertram Percival Absolutely it does. If things were so bad where they came from, why are they proud to display the flag of their country of origin that they were so desperate to run away from? And they are protesting that they are getting the result of coming to this country illegally. Is the government to do nothing?

Percival Bertram So if someone flees hardship in their home country, are they required to erase all cultural identity when they arrive here? Does flying the flag of your heritage mean you're loyal to that government? Or could it be a symbol of identity, like it is for millions of Americans on St. Patrick's Day or Cinco de Mayo? And just so I'm clear....are you saying due process and protest rights don't apply to people unless they came here the 'right' way? Because by that logic, Irish, Italian, Jewish, and Polish immigrants who protested discrimination in their day were also 'ungrateful lawbreakers.' Should they have just stayed quiet too?

Millicent Bertram You should be more worried about what Trump is doing by putting the National Guard and US Marines into a state that did not ask for assistance. You should be more worried about Trump threatening American Citizens with "very heavy force" because his fragile ego can't handle a protest. You should be more worried about Trump's eagerness to trample on the Constitution. You should be more worried that this is where we're at, only 142 days into this term. Look at how other modern nations have fallen and how the Trump presidency mirrors them. You should be very worried about all of this and so much more over a guy carrying a Mexican flag.

Percival Bertram I noticed you didn't answer one of my key questions. You said immigrants flying the flag of their homeland is disrespectful to the United States. So let me ask again, how is flying the Confederate battle flag, which represented an armed rebellion against this country, not also disrespectful? How is it not a slap in the face of liberty? If the standard is love for the United States, how does the flag of a government that killed U.S. soldiers in defense of slavery pass the test?

Bertram Percival if you are protesting your host country then you should at least have the semblance of gratitude. I don't have a problem with them flying their flag. But not in a protest especially if they are illegals. If they crossed the border illegally then they should be prosecuted, doesn't matter what country you come from. A great analogy. Someone breaks into your house. You decide to not call the police. Later they protest, burning things and attacking the host. You OK with that? Doesn't matter what flag they are waving. They are bad guests and should be booted. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. You said your peace and I said my mind. Let's leave it at that.

Bertram Millicent if this is allowed to continue then we don't have a country to save anymore. Trump didn't start fires or loot businesses, including other immigrants (legal immigrants). His actions are a response to the rioting and looting going on.

Percival Bertram Fair enough. Just noting for the record. You still never answered the question about the Confederate flag. That was the core issue about the double standard, and it remains unanswered. As for the protestors, how do you know everyone flying a Mexican flag is undocumented? Plenty of American citizens do that. Assuming legal status based on a flag or a protest is not evidence. It's profiling. And the house analogy falls apart. A private home is not a nation. Immigration is not a break-in. It is governed by law, handled by courts, and includes legal protections. Entering the U.S. without documentation is not the same as violently invading someone's living room. People can disagree on policy. But comparing immigrants to criminals attacking a homeowner crosses into dehumanizing rhetoric. That is not an honest analogy. It is designed to provoke, not explain. I can agree with you on one thing. This thread was not about changing your mind. It was about exposing the double standard for everyone else to see.

Millicent Bertram His actions were not asked for. You're missing the big picture.

Humphrey Bertram posted by Alt National Park Service June 9 at 11:25 AM

Let this sink in. Even the Los Angeles Police Chief, Jim McDonnell, made it clear: the people protesting immigration raids were not the ones causing violence. During a Sunday evening press conference, McDonnell condemned the violence as "disgusting" and emphasized that those responsible were not the peaceful protesters demonstrating against ICE. He said the violent actors were "people who do this all the time," not the individuals exercising their First Amendment rights during the day. He affirmed what we already knew: the ones breaking windows and starting chaos weren't the ones demanding justice, they were opportunists hijacking the moment.

Bertram Humphrey I don't recall talking about violence. Rather I was talking about the apparent un-gratefulness displayed by immigrants displaying their flag of country of origin.

Humphrey Bertram you went there in your shitty analogy.

Percival Bertram You said, and I quote: 'Breaks into your house. You decide to not call the police. Later they protest, burning things and attacking the host.' That's not about ungratefulness. That's a violent criminal analogy. And still, the original question remains unanswered. Why is it un-American to fly a Mexican flag at a protest, but not un-American to fly the Confederate battle flag...an actual symbol of armed rebellion against the United States? That contradiction was the entire point of the post. You keep sidestepping it, but it's where this conversation lives. Is this the patriotism, gratitude, and rule of law you're defending?

[image of Jan 6 rioter carrying a Confederate Flag through the Capitol]

Bertram Percival I thought by your earlier response you understood that I was done talking about this. We are talking in circles. We are both entrenched in our beliefs. I've poorly articulated my reasons. But I still contend it is disrespectful for a guest (un-invited or otherwise) to criticize the host especially if they are in-invited. That alone is reason for criticism.

Percival Bertram Understood. Just noting for the silent audience that we were not talking in circles. I asked a direct question about a clear contradiction. The question remains unanswered. Sometimes the silence says more than the argument ever could.

Bertram You know Percival. It's not about the truth for you is it. It appears more important for you to be right more than anything else. Especially based on your last comment.

Bertram How much effing clear can I make it. They don't belong. And they further the disrespect of this country and our laws by waving the flag of the country they left. If they flew both side by side I wouldn't have a problem. The confederate flag waving though distasteful is protected speech of a citizen of this country.

Percival Bertram At no point was this about me being 'right.' I asked a simple, direct question that you could not or would not answer. You claimed it was un-American to fly a Mexican flag in protest, but you gave a pass to the Confederate battle flag. That contradiction was the point. Not winning. Not ego. Just making that double standard visible. If you felt cornered by the question, that's not on me. That's on the answer that never came.

Percival Bertram Thanks for the honesty. Just so we're clear; immigrants protesting with a heritage flag 'don't belong,' but citizens flying a flag that represented the violent destruction of the United States are just expressing distasteful but protected speech. You are not applying the same standard. You're just deciding whose expression offends you more, and disguising that as patriotism. The law protects both. The outrage only targets one. That contradiction still stands.

Bertram And I just articulated the reason as well as I can. But you want to persist. Good for you Percival. I reiterated my desire to end this convo but you persisted. So you win the argument. You made your point at the cost of a friend. Such as a Facebook friend is a friend.

Percival Bertram You jumped onto my thread. I responded by asking clear, civil questions about a double standard (which was the entire point of the post). That isn't aggression. That's engagement. If being challenged on a public comment feels like a personal attack, that's not something I can control. But I won't apologize for asking questions you were unwilling or unable to answer. This was never about winning. It was about exposing the contradiction and letting others see it for themselves. In this case, you defended the Confederate flag while condemning people flying a Mexican flag in protest. That's the record. Not opinion. Just what happened.

Bertram At best you have to have to have the last word which I'm sure we will see after this post. There was no contradiction. I explained my reasoning you just ignored it because you didn't agree. You really are an un-agreeable person. Bye.

Percival Bertram I didn't ignore your comments. I responded to them directly and asked questions based on your own statements. I never stated an opinion. I pointed out a contradiction; condemning one group for waving a flag, while defending another waving a flag tied to rebellion and slavery. If that contradiction makes you uncomfortable, that's not my fault. That's the weight of the position you defended. As for being agreeable, I value honesty over comfort. If that's disagreeable to you, then we have nothing more to discuss. Take care.